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Tandemkross

Author Topic: Have You Seen This Video?  (Read 4156 times)

Offline Uncle Buck

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Have You Seen This Video?
« on: June 01, 2011, 05:01:22 PM »
Have any of you seen this video or heard of this incident?

I really do not want to turn this in to a cop bashing thread, there are enough of them all over the web.  Instead, I would like to get your opinions on what went wrong, based on the evidence presented.  (Admittedly, this is very limited, but what sort of conclusions can we draw from this?)

VIDEO LINK

(Sorry about the title of the above link, but I can not change that.  Just don't know how.  If one of the Mods want to change it to VIDEO HERE, I would not complain) Done - GL

Another print story here

  I have been in high adrenaline situations before, with my weapon loaded, chambered and selector lever on fire.  It was always drilled in to us to KNOW your target.  CHALLENGE your target.  I think I spent a total of ten years on the TNT (Tactical Neutralization Team) and the EST (Emergency Services Team).  It was then changed to SWAT.

  Not knowing what was happening on the inside of the door makes this a very tough call.  

1.  The report says the wife and child were hiding in a closet:  Does this mean the family was awakened by (?) and the former Marine instructed them to take cover, or does this mean the family has practiced this before?

2.  The number of shots fired.  This concerns me.  The firing was not controlled.  Anyone who has ever done any SWAT practice knows who is covering what side of the room and who is responsible for which sector of the room.  Does this show a lack of practice on the part of the team?

Any related links or follow-ups would be appreciated.  Also, Please keep it gentle and respectful.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 09:46:53 PM by GunLink »

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Have You Seen This Video?
« on: June 01, 2011, 05:01:22 PM »

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Offline GunLink

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2011, 01:02:37 AM »
Bad situation.  Impossible to know what went on without more info.  I'd hate to postulate on it one way or the other.  Maybe the Marine was just an innocent who fell victim to overzealous police with itchy trigger fingers or maybe he was a genuine bad guy who got what he deserved.  Both have happened plenty of times.  Difficult to justify how it went down, regardless.

If someone was pounding on my door and trying to break it down, I would probably greet such individuals with a hot weapon as well.  Then again, I know that I'm not a bad guy and the police shouldn't be breaking down my door.  On the other hand, someone who is a bad guy might greet them with a gun precisely because he knows that the police should be breaking down his door.


Offline Uncle Buck

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2011, 09:48:46 AM »
I agree with you on your observations. But I can not be the only member of the board (Current member, we'll have many more members soon) that has experience, albeit old,  in these situations.

  If the former Marine was a violent person, he should have been taken outside the home.

Offline masfonos

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 10:17:40 AM »
I don't have personal experience in situations like this but it seems like it was handled VERY poorly by SWAT.  It could be that Guerena planned on going out in a blaze of glory and told his family to hide to be safe.  The more reasonable answer (Occam's Razor, common sense, etc) would seem to be that someone was pounding on his door so he had them get to cover and then went to check it out with a weapon.  In high adrenaline situations like that, it can be easy to get tunnel vision and block out whatever you aren't specifically focusing on; he may have been freaking out and never even heard the police announce or the sirens.  Maybe he froze up and didn't comply with orders, maybe he was having some sort of PTSD episode.

Even if they had practiced going through such an exercise, who's to say that it was with nefarious intent?  Note to good guys:  bad guys exist, plan accordingly.  It's not a bad idea to drill with your family what you should do in the case of a fire, home invasion, etc.  From the inside of that house it probably looked a lot like a home invasion.

I think you're right to be concerned about the number of shots fired.  They hadn't even made it through the door and they fired 70 shots at one man who did not fire one round.  The video mentioned that the many was shot at least 60 times.  Was he wearing body armor?  Toxicology report?  Was he tweaking, on PCP or something?  Some other reason he wouldn't go down?  I can't see many reasons for the entire team to unleash that number of rounds on him.  As you say, the team should have specific tasks that they are responsible for (clearing ahead, clearing room right, clearing room left, etc) and I would imagine that one or two members are tasked with the initial breech of the door.  Those members should have been the first in, quickly evaluated the situation and, if necessary (which we may never know), take down the bad guy with whatever amount of force is necessary.  It would have to be one hell of a situation to call for that amount of force.

Offline GunLink

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 10:22:57 AM »
SWAT raid draws criticism of Sheriff Dupnik
Jun 01, 2011 11:53 PM EDT
Reporter: Claire Doan

The raid on former Marine Jose Guerena's home has garnered national and international attention, raising numerous questions about excessive force and proper SWAT protocol, with Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik at the center on an increasingly heated and political debate.
...
However, the raw video has not quelled the debate over the SWAT raid or stopped questions about Guerena's death, and it certainly has not ended the growing number of calls for Dupnik to come forward and justify what happened.

"It shows they were a bit overzealous. It shows that the Pima County Sheriff's Office has got to readdress their entire SWAT usage," said Richard Mack, former Graham County Sheriff, who is not the only one compelled to speak out.
...
"Are you telling me that after 20 months of looking at this case, this option was the best they could come up with?" Miller asked, adding that SWAT had safer options, including stopping Guerena on the side of the road or serve the search warrant when he isn't home. Miller expects the Sheriff to eventually explain why SWAT chose a more confrontational method.

"I obviously ultimately hold him responsible for this. The buck stops with him...(READ MORE)

Offline GunLink

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 10:25:08 AM »
No decision on Tucson SWAT shooting warrants
June 2, 2011 at 7:10 AM

No decision yet whether the Pima County Sheriff's Department will have to release the search warrant that brought the SWAT team to the home of Jose Guerena (READ MORE - Plus Video)

Offline GunLink

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 10:27:39 AM »
Sheriff says raid at former Marine’s Tucson house stemmed from a 20-month drug, homicide probe
Associated Press, Published: June 1


Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told an Arizona Daily Star editorial meeting that details into Jose Guerena’s activities will not be released because it could place an informant at risk.

Special Weapons and Tactics officers went to Guerena’s house May 5 to serve a search warrant. Department officials say (READ MORE)


This article states that Guerena was shot 22 times rather than the 60 reported in the original video.

Offline GunLink

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 10:30:01 AM »
New Details: 9OYS obtains Jose Guerena's 2009 arrest record
Jun 02, 2011 8:00 AM EDT
Reporter: Sergio Avila


This video of the shooting at Jose Guerena's home has cast a huge spotlight on him and his family. A picture of Guerena has circulated where he's dressed in his marine uniform but 9OYS has just received his booking photo where he's dressed in an inmate jumpsuit.

Guerena was arrested in 2009 but never charged. 9OYS wanted to know why. Reporter Sergio Avila headed to Eloy Justice court to get the records. The documents show Guerena was arrested for drug possession, having drug paraphernalia and weapon misconduct.

9OYS also has discovered Guerena's wife, Vanessa, paid a $2500 bond to bail him out of jail but that money was returned to her when no charges were filed...(READ MORE)

Offline GunLink

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 10:33:06 AM »
Dupnik: Raid stemmed from 20-month probe
By Fernanda Echavarri Arizona Daily Star Arizona Daily Star
Wednesday, June 1, 2011 12:00 am

...
Guerena was hit 22 times and died at the scene, according to a preliminary report by the Pima County Medical Examiner's Office.

Two weeks after the shooting, officers were alerted to a storage room at Ajo Kinney Super Storage, 5175 W. Ajo Highway, rented to Jose Guerena's mother, Bertha, Dupnik said.

Inside the locker, officers found a large number of financial documents and ledgers that "make it clear to us that this is drug money and money owed to a number of individuals," Pima County sheriff's Bureau Chief Rick Kastigar said via telephone during Dupnik's visit to the Star.

Officers also found high-end military gear and advanced weather protective clothing inside the storage locker, Kastigar said.

Three other homes were searched May 5 as part of the investigation: one home owned by Jose Guerena's mother, Bertha, and two homes owned by Jose Celaya, a listed suspect in the drug and homicide investigation.

Jose Guerena's older brother, Alejandro Guerena, is also listed as a suspect, documents show.

Officers recovered at least one stolen vehicle, marijuana, drug ledgers, about $100,000 in cash and numerous weapons from the two homes owned by Celaya, documents released Thursday show.

But since the deadly raid, no arrests have been made...(READ MORE)

Offline Uncle Buck

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 10:24:19 AM »
High End Military Gear and Advanced Weather Protection Clothing can be found in most veterans homes, as well as military collectors.  They need to list the items found and maybe ad a little credibility to the story.

Just because he was arrested (and later released, with-out charges being filed) does not mean he was guilty.  I have been arrested before and I still do not have a criminal record.  All charges where dropped and an apology given.

Your bother deals dope, so you are automatically guilty by association?  A lot of us would be in trouble.

They will not release any more information because the informant may be killed?  Informants are always reliable.  Instead it is better to killed a suspect than an informant.

"Dupnik would not comment on the tactics used by the SWAT team and said a shooting board made up of officials from each of the agencies involved in the shooting would review the case."  Proverbial fox watching the hen house.

  Things went South real fast and it now looks like they are trying to cover their butts.

Thanks for all the follow-up links.

Offline small

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 10:45:28 AM »
Jumping in here. Looking at the video it seemed clear that the when the lead cop with the shield fell before he got in the door and kept the rest from actually going into the house may have triggered the mess by screwing up the plan of attack. Over seventy rounds fired at a single individual is in itself I'd say excessive. Too often a cop will shoot anyone first and ask questions later if they see a gun. It just happened here again in Chicago two weeks ago. Kid was shot in the back because the Sargent thought he saw a gun.

As it stands there is not enough shown to be able to make clear what happened. The sirens were going so on top of them announcing, which I didn't here, he should/could have been aware that the cops were about. If he wanted to "Suicide by Cop" for whatever reason that is possible and got it. Now if he knew they were cops and he was a bad guy knowing they were coming into the house he could have put himself into a more defensive position that would have allowed him to at least get a round off or he could have fired through the door or at the moment it was opening. The fact that he didn't leads me to speculate that he came to the door with a AR to see what the hell was going on.

One of the post spoke of taking the guy while he was in his car. I have said that over and over that taking a suspect in day light in a car would be much less dangerous for all involved then these early morning raids that jar people from their sleep. I can only imagine that if you live in a Sh!tty part of town where there are break ins that if you heard someone beating down you door you might just come prepared,

For more on the general topic of Botched Police raids the following link is to the CATO Institute that tracks this kind of thing. It is not Police bashing but reading it I would think would allow a pattern to be seen, and lessons to be learned by law enforcement .

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

This case is listed on the map.

Offline GunLink

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 11:31:51 AM »
Picture Gallery: Guerena SWAT raid shooting scene photos
Posted: Jun 07, 2011 3:52 PM EDT Updated: Jun 08, 2011 9:00 AM EDT
Photos by:  Pima County Sheriff's Department
Notes by:  Forrest Carr

KGUN9 News viewers have been requesting more information about the scene of the May 5 SWAT shooting that killed former U.S. Marine Jose Guerena.   Some have asked whether any drawings exist to show what happened in the house where the raid took place.

Investigators have not released any drawings, but crime scene photographs issued late last week do give an idea of what happened.   The picture gallery above provides highlights from more than a thousand photos that investigators have released to the media so far.

According to the raid video and to testimony contained in various documents made public so far, here is what happened on the morning of the raid (READ MORE...)


Offline masfonos

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 11:53:04 AM »
I find it strange that they have had this guy under surveillance for almost two years and they weren't expecting him to be home.  What were they spending those 20 months doing?  It apparently wasn't monitoring drugs being trafficked through the house, as their search turned up no drugs.  And since when do they not release any information about the info that the warrant is based on in the interest of protecting the snitch?  I can see not releasing the snitch's name, maybe; but not giving any information smells sort of funny.

 I've heard two versions of what started the whole cluster----.  One says that the shield man simply tripped, causing the rest of SWAT to think he'd been shot (apparently by someone whom they could clearly and ought to have been able to tell whether he was firing at them or not and also apparently without hearing any gunfire).  Thinking they had a man down, SWAT executed a maneuver to extract the injured man while laying down covering/suppressive fire.

The other version is that the cluster---- was triggered when a bullet impacted the door frame...from the outside of the door meaning that one of SWAT may have had an itchy trigger finger.  Shield man fell after seeing/hearing/feeling the bullet impact beside him and, thinking they had a man down, SWAT executed a maneuver to extract the injured man while laying down covering/suppressive fire.

The actual door breech seems to be missing from the video posted, so it's difficult to tell what happened during that time.  The video does, however, seem NOT to show SWAT trying to extract an injured team member while laying covering fire; instead, they all seem to just be sticking their weapons through the door and unloading them as quickly as they can.  It seems rather difficult to call this a well planned, well executed serving of a search warrant on a subject who has been under surveillance for 20 months no matter how you look at it.

I suppose they're just lucky that the wife/children/etc. weren't on the other side of the wall pictured above.   :-\

Offline masfonos

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 11:55:18 AM »
For more on the general topic of Botched Police raids the following link is to the CATO Institute that tracks this kind of thing. It is not Police bashing but reading it I would think would allow a pattern to be seen, and lessons to be learned by law enforcement .

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

This case is listed on the map.


Interesting link.  Thanks for sharing

Offline small

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 01:35:21 PM »
I didn't see where it said they didn't expected him home? If that was the case and he'd been under surveillance why then such heavy handed execution of a search warrant. I would have thought a simple knock at the door would have allowed them to gain entry.

Reading those stories on the CATO map its amazing how many times acting on little information these guys suit up like Jack Booted Storm Troopers to execute a warrant and search for drugs. I'm certain COPS get it right more then not BUT and I don't know which of the founders said it (maybe it wasn't one at all) but it went something like this. "Our judicial/legal system should allow 100 guilty man to go free before a single innocent man goes to jail. With that cops need to be on their game all the time. Interestingly I Googled the phase and found a Hypo question regarding that, which I may post in its own thread.

Anyway Police are becoming much more aggressive in the way they are handling these things. They pump themselves up with the fear that something could happen, so we need the gear and training. Then once they have it they need to use it. I'd have to do some digging but I don't recall ever reading about at least as many swat actions that have "used" deadly force when they were right about the subject. Most times the guy drops what he has, lies down and complies, not go a John Wayne on them. 

I think it the Discovery Channel, A&E or some other that has run so many "Real TV" shows depicting COP's/SWAT. Never have I seen a guy even go for a gun let alone try to resist. Flush the dope or run away, hide, whatever, but not fight. How many times do they get the guy while he's in bed in his boxers and Dago tee just giving it up. Later they show how it "could have gone bad" since they found guns in the house. I'm guessing those guns are there to protect them from being robbed by other bad guys not to put up a fight with the Law.   

Offline Uncle Buck

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Re: Have You Seen This Video?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2011, 02:37:11 PM »
I still think something fishy went on.  Either they are very amatuerish or they under-estimated what they would find.

I have been involved in a few situations where we would rather take a suspect away from the home (Traffic Stop) than to risk having him destroy evidence.

It could turn out the man who was shot is a dirt bag  or it could turn out the entire episode was wrong and he was innocent.  Thanks for everyones input.