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Author Topic: ATF 41P - Combined Thread  (Read 6727 times)

Offline GunLink

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ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« on: September 15, 2014, 08:05:48 PM »
If BATFE's 41P efforts are successful (bad for gun owners and NFA enthusiasts), a finalized version of this draft of Form 5320.23 will likely be required for each NFA trust trustee, co-trustee and authorized user. 

The new requirements for the additional form, fingerprint card and CLEO for all responsible persons would effectively eliminate the benefits of a trust as provided for by the Gun Control Act and would essentially ban NFA items in many locations due to the requirement for Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) sign-off where the CLEO is anti-gun/anti-NFA.

The BATFE has stated that there will be no new action on 41P before the end of this year.  There general consensus on rumors is that pending applications will not be subject to 41P.  If you haven't already, it sounds like there is no time like the present to establish your trust and get some Form 1s and Form 4s in.

Merged threads - 41P action delayed until May 2015 - see below
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 05:01:23 PM by GunLink »

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ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« on: September 15, 2014, 08:05:48 PM »

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Offline noobgunner

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Re: Form 5320.23 :: Responsible Person Form for Trusts :: 41P Related
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2014, 08:55:23 PM »
whats all this?

Offline GunLink

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Re: Form 5320.23 :: Responsible Person Form for Trusts :: 41P Related
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 10:53:12 AM »
The National Firearms Act (NFA) established the taxes and registration of Title II firearms (including machine guns, suppressors/silencers, short barreled rifles and shotguns, "any other weapons") transfers.

Transfer of such items involves filling out ATF forms for registration, paying the tax and submitting fingerprint cards and a sign-off by your chief law enforcement officer (CLEO).  Many CLEOs do now want NFA items in their jurisdiction for whatever reason - usually due to them being generally anti-gun or falsely believing that the items will somehow negatively affect crime in the area.  In those situations, the CLEO sign-off requirement is a de facto ban on NFA items.

NFA items are obviously heavily regulated and only the registered owner can possess or have access to the items.  For instance, this means that if a man buys a suppressor in order to safely shoot a pistol without hearing damage and he keeps that suppressor in his gun safe, his wife may not have access to the safe.  If that is their only gun safe, she would not have access to any of the other firearms therein - potentially keeping her from accessing tools that could keep her safe in the event of a home break-in.  Alternatively, a father and son could not individually enjoy the use of an NFA item if it is registered to only one of them. 

NFA items may, however, by statue, be transferred to entities other than individual people - such as corporations, LLCs or trusts.  Since these entities are not people, the need for submission of fingerprint cards or CLEO sign-off is not necessary - thus eliminating the de facto ban where in anti-gun CLEO jurisdictions.  Additionall, named executives or trustees of such entities are entitled to access to the items.  Therefore, if a man and wife are co-trustees of a trust or board members of a corporation holding NFA items, they could both enjoy use and access to the items, including access to a safe containing those items.

Note that this is NOT A LOOPHOLE as some may like to call it.  This is the law and it is by design.  This does not allow prohibited people to transfer, own, possess or use regulated items.

Many people choose a trust over forming an LLC or corporation due to the ease of establishing it, low/zero maintenance to keep it going, and ability to provide for the disposition of the NFA items upon the death of the trust grantor. 

By presidential order, the BATFE is pushing to stop following the law as written and require additional steps that could effectively eliminate the benefits of holding NFA items in trust.  The above form is apparently a draft of the form that would be required by these efforts, known as 41P.

Offline shhhgunz

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Re: Form 5320.23 :: Responsible Person Form for Trusts :: 41P Related
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 12:09:57 PM »
There's been alot of buzz about trusts lately.

First 41 p then putting it on hold until january then this form that has been circulating.

Then Prince law thought ATF opened the mg registry with a clarificatoin letter (a trust is a person here but not here...) and now they apparently have approved a number of new manufacture machine guns for trusts.

interesting times

Offline GunLink

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ATF 41P - Regarding NFA and Trusts - Action Delayed Until May 2015
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 12:05:47 PM »
Anyone who is interested in NFA-regulated items such as suppressors, short barreled rifles and shotguns, AOWs, etc. has probably been (or should be) following the progress (or, thankfully, lack thereof) Docket ATF 41P.  41P is summarized, in part, as:
Quote
The Department of Justice proposes amending Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regulations that concern the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act (NFA). The proposed changes include: Defining the term “responsible person,” as used in reference to a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation; requiring “responsible persons” of such legal entities to submit, inter alia, photographs and fingerprints, as well as a law enforcement certificate, when the legal entity files an application to make an NFA firearm or is listed as the transferee on an application to transfer an NFA firearm
Basically, 41P attacks some of the benefits of registering NFA items to a trust rather than an individual.  Particularly discomforting is the requirement to submit the fingerprints/photo/CLEO sign-off for a "responsible person" for the trust where none was required before.  In many jurisdictions where the chief law enforcement officer is anti-gun (or specifically anti-NFA), the CLEO will categorically refuse to sign off on any NFA transfer for no other reason than that he does not want to - resulting in a de facto NFA ban in that jurisdiction in spite of the items otherwise being completely legal therein.  Trusts are also popular for registering NFA-regulated items as they allow trustees (such as a spouse or family member) access to the items rather than having to keep them in a safe to which only the individual registrant has access as well as the more traditional trust benefit of providing for what happens to the item after the trust grantor dies.

Following 41P's proposal, further action was postponed until after the first of 2015.  Now, according to a post by the American Suppressor Association, the ATF has indicated that action will not be taken until at least May of 2015:
Quote
During our meeting, we were told by ATF officials that the final ruling is not expected until May, 2015 at the earliest. This extends ATF’s previous estimate that a ruling would be issued in January, 2015. The standard timeframe to issue a final ruling is six months after the close of the comment period. However, because of the overwhelming number of comments submitted, ATF has had to delay their decision on several occasions.

The primary reason for the numerous delays is because each qualified comment must be responded to by ATF in writing. According to ATF, they have never received this many comments for any proposed rulemaking in Bureau history. After the final ruling is issued, there is generally a 60 day grace period prior to implementation of the new regulation.

Despite the reported push back of the date, "there is no time like the present" and people are still clamoring to set up their trusts ahead of the possible action (which, hopefully, will be to throw out the proposal).

This is just one facet of the NFA/Trust puzzle that has been seeing action.  As we recently posted on the GunLink Blog, Eric Holder and BATFE director B Todd Jones have been summonsed in a lawsuit has been filed to challenge the applicability of the Hughes Amendment to trusts after someone figured out that it may be possible to make (Form 1) a post 1986 machine gun registered to a trust.  The BATFE approved multiple Form 1s for trusts but then suddenly began categorically denying them and requesting that approved forms and stamps be returned.  The lawsuit seeks to either declare 922(o) unconstitutional or to get a ruling that the May 1986 cut-off date for machine guns does not apply to unincorporated trusts.

A lot is happening at this end of the NFA realm.  If you are interested in owning NFA-regulated items with the benefits provided by a trust, we recommend our friends at 199Trust, who currently have their trusts on sale for $79 and are getting trust documents out within 24 hours.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 01:17:22 PM by GunLink »

Offline Lebowski

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Re: ATF 41P - Regarding NFA and Trusts - Action Delayed Until May 2015
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 09:16:20 PM »
They are just giving themselves more time to dream up ways to bone us when they make a ruling.  I wonder if the elections have any effect on this.  It leaves some time between when all the repubs who gained seats to take office and write letters to them about this before the ruling date. Does the info they put yet say anything about what will happen to current trusts or pending nfa applications on trusts?  IOW will getting a trust for nfa now be a waste of money or is now the perfect time to do it before its to late?
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Offline masfonos

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Re: ATF 41P - Regarding NFA and Trusts - Action Delayed Until May 2015
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 10:33:03 PM »
If you think it's something you might want to do, it's probably not a waste to get going on it now.  May is 6 months away, 7 if they wait until the end of may to do anything.  If you have the money for NFA toys now, that is most likely enough time to get a paper form through, let alone eForms which should be done much faster. 

I can't imagine that they would try to do anything to existing NFA firearms that are registered to trusts.  Everyone knows the registry is already a huge mess and I think think that trying to track down people/trustees en masse would let that cat out of the bag even more and shine a bad light on the ATF and the registry.  Who knows what would happen to pending applications if they decide to run with 41P.  I dont' think we can expect ATF to act with any common sense, so that might be a crap shoot. 

Don't forget that it isn't "in may, 41P takes effect".  It is "in may, somebody will decide something about 41P".  Maybe that will be to run with it, maybe it will be to throw it out, maybe it will be some "compromise" on it.  Writing reps might not hurt, but I doubt we can count on them to reign in the ATF.  They just make things up as they go and are used to getting away with it.

Offline heavy

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Re: Form 5320.23 :: Responsible Person Form for Trusts :: 41P Related
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2014, 04:55:45 PM »
Can you put NFA weapons that you already have on a Trust?
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Offline masfonos

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Re: Form 5320.23 :: Responsible Person Form for Trusts :: 41P Related
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2014, 09:44:27 AM »
Can you put NFA weapons that you already have on a Trust?

Sure you can, but you and the trust are two different legal entities so you'll have to transfer your personally owned firearms to the trust and pay the $200 each.  You can't just say "these are my firearms *poof* now they're in my trust".

Offline shhhgunz

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 11:01:15 AM »
I have not heard anything new about this for a while. 

I thought that that there would be no way that they would go through with 41P but with the BS that ATF is trying to pull on green tip M855 I just don't know anymore.  I know that they do some really questionable stuff but I figured that some stuff is just too far out there that there would be no way it would go through. 

If M855 ban happens then I think it will go to their head and they will continue power grab on stuff like this.  They are out of control.

Offline heavy

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Re: Form 5320.23 :: Responsible Person Form for Trusts :: 41P Related
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 02:30:26 PM »
Can you put NFA weapons that you already have on a Trust?

Sure you can, but you and the trust are two different legal entities so you'll have to transfer your personally owned firearms to the trust and pay the $200 each.  You can't just say "these are my firearms *poof* now they're in my trust".

Too bad.  I guess it makes sense though because the trust "owns" the weapons and the people in the trust are just allowed to use them.  I got a NFA trust from the 199trust people.  It was very easy to get set up and I have a f4 pending on it.  I was talking to some people that said that paper f4s get approved faster than for individuals so I guess we'll see.  It would be great if they would put them back online.  I was thinking about using tax refund on a couple of f1s online with the trust with to see how fast they come back.  Has anyone tried that?
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Offline masfonos

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 04:42:06 PM »
Probably haven't heard anything for a while because there isn't anything to hear.  After all, they do have over 9000 comments to read through.  I heard that they brought a bunch of new people on to help with the transfer backlog.  I wonder how many of them are digging through the comments on this?

Silencer Co just started selling trusts.  I would guess that they are probably pretty optimistic about 41P not going through or else they would be sort of cutting their own throats with their customers if they sell them something that has a good chance of being totally useless in a couple of months.  Unless the idea is to flood the market with them and give as many people access before the decision just in case.  They're like $130 though while 199 trusts are usually around 99 or less.  I think they're 75 now and are on gearhog for around 60 once in a while.

Offline GunLink

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2015, 11:17:19 AM »
In case you missed it on the GunLink Blog

Another 41P Pushback? Good News for NFA Enthusiasts.

"NSSF has confirmed with ATF that the bureau is unlikely to publish Notice 41P (NFA Trusts) as a Final Rule for quite some time."

The NSSF seems to think that it will be a while before a final ruling on 41P will happen.  Still plenty of time to file your NFA forms using a trust under the usual method.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 12:15:27 PM by GunLink »

Offline shhhgunz

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2015, 01:15:49 PM »
Not much reason now or over the past months to do anything differently than at any other time.  There haven't been any rule changes yet so no reason not to just buy as an entity.

I guess maybe unless you were planning on buying A LOT of NFA stuff over a long period of time and didn't want to waste money setting up a trust or LLC that wouldn't be as useful if 41P passed.  But as cheap as trusts are, why not just buy what you want with one now and if 41P ever goes thru then figure it out from there.  Especially since any ruling keeps getting pushed fartehr out and sounds like its pretty much indefinitely postponed.

Offline LivingDeadGirl

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2015, 11:56:49 PM »
I think the biggest benefit of having a trust, especially if you're married, is that both people can be put on the trust and have legal access to the NFA item. Otherwise, the one who owns the item would need a separate safe to which the other does not have access.

Offline heavy

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2015, 03:06:39 PM »
Couples or family members being cotrustees is good but a even bigger benefit would be for people who live somewhere with a CLEO that wont sign off.  Maybe they find some other friendly official that counts as CLEO but maybe not.  With trust or llc or corp they wouldn't have to bother with politicians steping on their rights.  If they change it to require CLEO sign for all "responsbile persons" then it basically bans NFA in area with anti CLEO. If you can't get them in the first place, sharing them with spouse is moot.
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Offline GunLink

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 11:16:35 AM »
Officially pushed back.  Again.  This time until December 2015.

http://blog.gunlink.info/2015/05/27/41p-final-ruling-pushed-back-to-at-least-december-2015/

Offline DieselDude

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 11:57:09 AM »
It sounds like there is a long wait to get a stamp after you submit your paperwork.  If it is submitted before 41P but not approved yet will it be grandfathered in?  I got a 199 trust but haven't used it yet.

Offline masfonos

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 01:08:37 PM »
I think that, technologically speaking in general, they couldn't find their ass with both hands.  How long have eForm 4s been down?  How long did they last in the first place?  How screwed up is the registry already (there's an answer I bet will never see the light of day)?  And these are the folks who are going to upgrade the entire process to handle an entirely new form with multiple new pieces of data?

They say stuff like "it's Title I if you use it this way but Title II if you use it that way, despite no physical changes to the firearm" or "this airsoft gun is a machine gun... oh, wait, now it's not" or "this shoestring is a machinegun."  I honestly don't think anybody has time or cause to worry about whether or not submitted forms will fall under the new rules or whether ATF would say "you followed all the rules, but we changed the rules, so now you didn't follow the rules."

If you want to get NFA items, file your forms like you normally would.  The worst that could happen if you file and they say 41P is a GO and for some reason don't grandfather pending apps is to deny it and refund your money.  The worst that could happen if you put off filing and they say 41P is a go is that you have to file under the new rules - which means NFA ban in places with unfriendly CLEO.

I think that 41P would be just about impossible to put into action and it will either keep getting pushed back or just go away.  In any case, "Better safe than sorry", "he who hesitates is lost", etc.

Offline DieselDude

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Re: ATF 41P - Combined Thread
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 04:56:23 PM »
understood

 

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