!!

Hello, Guest!

You are viewing the GunLink forums as a guest.  CLICK HERE to register for the forums and unlock more features, hidden forums and the ability post in topics, vote in polls, see poll results and more.

TekMat Chief Supply Tactical Apparel and Gear for Law, Fire, EMS, Military and Outdoors @chief

Author Topic: HB38 Vote Tomorrow  (Read 435 times)

Offline LivingDeadGirl

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
  • Karma: 0
  • GunLink Member
HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« on: December 06, 2017, 12:46:08 AM »
House Bill 38 (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/38) is scheduled for a vote today.

If you haven’t already, contact your House Representative about your thoughts.

GunLink Discussion Forums

HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« on: December 06, 2017, 12:46:08 AM »
Chief Supply Tactical Apparel and Gear for Law, Fire, EMS, Military and Outdoors @chief
Log in or register to disable this ad

Offline masfonos

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Karma: 8
National CCW reciprocity / Fix NICS bill passes House
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 09:25:44 AM »
All of the big organizations seem to be excited about the bill passing the house:

NRA: House Passes Concealed Carry Reciprocity
Quote
The National Rifle Association applauded the United States House of Representatives on Wednesday for passing the most far-reaching expansion of self-defense rights in modern American history. The Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 passed with bipartisan support in a 231-198 vote.

“This vote marks a watershed moment for Second Amendment rights,” said Chris W. Cox, executive director, National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action. “The Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act is the culmination of a 30-year movement recognizing the right of all law-abiding Americans to defend themselves, and their loved ones, including when they cross state lines.”

The bill, H.R. 38, ensures that those Americans who can legally carry a concealed firearm in one state will legally be able to do so in every other state. It eliminates the confusing patchwork of state laws that have ensnared otherwise law-abiding gun owners, and have forced law enforcement to waste their precious time and resources enforcing laws that don’t do anything to reduce violent crime.

The bill also makes improvements to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, NICS. All Americans, including law-abiding gun owners, agree that violent criminals should not have legal access to firearms. However, the system is only as good as its records, and recent events have shown that sometimes the correct information is not entered into the system. This bill incentivizes states and government agencies to update the NICS with legitimate records of prohibited persons.

Additionally, the bill creates an expedited process for removing records that are erroneously put in the system. Currently, when a person discovers they have been wrongly added to the NICS, it can take up to a year to get their name removed. This bill requires a response to an appeal within 60 days.

“This bill ensures that all law-abiding citizens in our great country can protect themselves in the manner they see fit without accidentally running afoul of the law.  We now call on the Senate to take up and pass this critical legislation,” Cox concluded.

The National Rifle Association would especially like to thank Rep. Richard Hudson, Judiciary Committee Chairman Bob Goodlatte, Speaker Paul Ryan, Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, and Majority Whip Steve Scalise for their extraordinary efforts to pass this important legislation.​ 

Of course NRA is going to be happy, national CCW is their baby and they have been pushing for that for a long time. They are happy that it's getting this far even if it any of the good provisions get stripped out in Senate.





NSSF Praises U.S. House Passage of National Concealed Carry Reciprocity Bill with Fix NICS Provisions
Quote
The National Shooting Sports Foundation® (NSSF®), the trade association for the firearms, ammunition and related industries, praised today’s 231 to 198 vote passage by the U.S. House of Representatives of the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 (H.R. 38), as amended to include legislative provisions to “Fix NICS,” which have long been a priority for the organization.

“With House passage today of H.R. 38, we have cleared a major hurdle toward what will be two major achievements for America’s law-abiding gun owners and for our federally-licensed firearms retailers,” said Lawrence Keane, NSSF senior vice president and general counsel. “This legislation provides a solution to the confusing patchwork of concealed carry laws and ensures that our citizens’ Second Amendment rights do not end at the state line.”

“Federally licensed firearms retailers rely upon the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to be accurate in preventing the sale and transfer of firearms to prohibited persons. The Fix NICS Act provisions included in the legislation passed today builds on the successes of NSSF’s FixNICS® campaign to encourage states to enter all applicable disqualifying records into the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) and requires federal agencies to properly report relevant records and hold those who fail to do so accountable,” Keane said.

Of course NSSF is going to be happy, FixNICS is their baby and they have been pushing for that for a long time. Keep in mind that this is a firearms industry group, not a Second Amendment group.







USCCA Applauds House of Representatives for Passing Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017, Urges Senate to Act
Quote
The United States Concealed Carry Association today applauded the work by lawmakers in the U.S. House of Representatives for passing the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 and urged the Senate to do the same so the President can sign the bill into law.  Tim Schmidt, Founder and President of the United States Concealed Carry Association, made the following statement:

"Millions of law-abiding gun owners are right now applauding the work of Congressman Richard Hudson and all who have played a part in passing this important legislation in the U.S. House.   Americans' Constitutional rights should not end at state lines, which is why concealed carry reciprocity is both common-sense and long overdue," said Tim Schmidt, Founder and President of the United States Concealed Carry Association.

"Law-abiding citizens should have the right to defend themselves and their families at all times from criminals who do not follow our laws.  Now that this bill has passed House, it’s critical for the Senate to act as well so President Trump can sign the bill into law," Schmidt concluded.

Of course the US Concealed Carry Association is going to be happy for a concealed carry bill. I think they are primarily a CCW insurance company, so the cynic in me sees that while they would see better CCW laws as a win for rights, they might also be seeing a bigger customer base. I don't know how much they work to pass (or stop) gun legislation.

Offline masfonos

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Karma: 8
Chair of Second Amendment Caucus Thomas Massie opposes National CCW/NICS bill
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 09:35:21 AM »
BUT....

US Republican congressman Thomas Massie, who is chairman of the 2nd Amendment caucus, is pushing back hard against the bill.  He says he wants to 'blow the whistle on the swamp'.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxfWmBHsdgg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxfWmBHsdgg</a>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxfWmBHsdgg


From his facebook page:
ALERT: Feinstein/Schumer sponsored gun legislation that amends the “Brady bill” will be added to Concealed Carry Reciprocity bill (HR 38) in the House this week.

As Chairman of the Second Amendment Caucus, I’m blowing the whistle on the swamp. Last week, Republicans in the House fast tracked through committee HR 4477, a gun bill titled “fix-NICS.” The Senate version of this bill is cosponsored by Senator Dianne Feintstein and Senator Chuck Schumer and it will send $625 million over 5 years to states to expand the national background check database. The bill will also advance former President Obama’s agenda of pressuring every branch of the administration (such as the Veteran’s Administration) to submit thousands of more names to the NICS background check database to deny gun purchases. The House bill is identical in every way to the Senate bill except the House bill will also commission a study on bump-stocks.

What you don’t know, and what virtually no one in Washington wants you to know, is that House leadership plans to merge the fix-NICS bill with popular Concealed Carry Reciprocity legislation, HR 38, and pass both of them with a single vote. Folks, this is how the swamp works. House leadership expects constituents to call their representatives demanding a vote on the reciprocity bill, when in fact the only vote will be on the two combined bills.

How fast did Fix-NICS, HR 4477, move through the Judiciary Committee? This bill broke the previous records for fast track legislation. It was voted out of committee within hours of being introduced in the House. Check the dates on this link: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/4477/text . That means the text of the bill wasn’t even discoverable by the public on congress.gov until after the bill passed out of committee! The text was however available over in the Senate where you will find Senator Diane Feinstein and Senator Chuck Schumer are cosponsors. https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2135/cosponsors

If that’s not odd enough, consider this: the fix-NICS bill was introduced in the House by a Democrat two weeks ago. https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/4434/text . But, in a very unusual move, the bill was re-introduced verbatim by a Republican two weeks later, with language added to it to commission a bump-stock study. Six Republicans in Judiciary Committee weren’t persuaded by the switcheroo, and voted No. However, because every Democrat voted yes and some Republicans voted yes at the urging of the Chairman, the bill made it out of committee. The deed will be complete this week when the bill is quietly added to the Reciprocity bill, HR 38, and passed without the knowledge of those who would oppose the legislation if they knew what was in it.

To recap, what are some clues that you should be concerned with the fix-NICS bill?
(1) The first sentence after the title of the bill reads “Section 103 of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (34 U.S.C. 40901) is amended…”
(2) Senators Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer are cosponsors in the Senate.
(3) It’s being rammed through, without a hearing, in a very nontransparent process, and it will be passed by attaching it to the popular concealed carry reciprocity bill which already has enough votes to pass on its own.
(4) It spends over half a billion dollars to collect more names to include in a list of people who will never be allowed to own a firearm.
(5) It compels administrative agencies, not just courts, to adjudicate your second amendment rights.

In my opinion, #5 is the biggest problem. The bill encourages administrative agencies, not the courts, to submit more names to a national database that will determine whether you can or can’t obtain a firearm. When President Obama couldn’t get Congress to pass gun control, he implemented a strategy of compelling, through administrative rules, the Veterans Administration and the Social Security Administration to submit lists of veterans and seniors, many of whom never had a day in court, to be included in the NICS database of people prohibited from owning a firearm. Only a state court, a federal (article III) court, or a military court, should ever be able to suspend your rights for any significant period of time.

Does the NICS background check system have problems? Yes, it results in tens of thousands of unjustified denials of gun purchases every year. But like many bills in Congress, the fix-NICS doesn’t live up to its name – it will likely do the opposite. It throws millions of dollars at a faulty program and it will result in more law-abiding citizens being deprived of their right to keep and bear arms.

If we continue to give the executive branch more money and encouragement to add names to the list of people prohibited from buying a firearm (without a day in court) and if the gun banners achieve their goal of universal background checks, one day, a single person elected to the office of President will be able to achieve universal gun prohibition.

House leadership should immediately de-couple the fix-NICS legislation from the concealed carry reciprocity legislation. People hate it when Washington combines bills like our leadership plans to do this week.

A few have speculated that the House is combining the bills to ensure reciprocity will pass in the Senate. I have some news for them: Senators Feinstein and Schumer aren’t going to vote for reciprocity even if it contains the fix-NICS legislation they support for expanding the background check database. If someone is naďve enough to think that’s going to work, and they’re willing to accept fix-NICS to get reciprocity, then they should ask the Senate to go first with the combined bill.

Here’s a dangerous scenario that’s more likely to play out: The House uses the popularity of reciprocity (HR 38) to sneak fix-NICS through, while the Senate passes fix-NICS only. The Senate and the House meet at conference with their respective bills, with the result being fix-NICS emerges from conference without reciprocity. Fix-NICS comes back to the House and passes because all of the Democrats will vote for it (as they just did in Judiciary Committee) and many Republicans will vote for it. Because Republicans already voted for it once as part of the reciprocity deal that never came to pass, they won’t have a solid footing for opposing fix-NICS as a standalone bill. Then we’ll end up with fix-NICS, which is basically an expansion of the Brady Bill, without reciprocity.

If our House leadership insists on bringing the flawed fix-NICS bill to the floor, they shouldn’t play games. We should vote separately on HR 38, the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Bill, and HR 4477, the fix-NICS bill. And we should be given enough time to amend the fix-NICS bill, because it needs to be fixed, if not axed.

Offline 1slickAR15

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
  • Karma: 6
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 01:59:55 PM »
So is it good or bad? I'm hearing both ways online. Military Arms was trashing it (and NRA) today too but I don't see anything bad in it.

Offline tassels

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Karma: 2
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 06:12:45 PM »
Republicans think its good because they think it shows them working for gun rights and they are naive enough to think that it will get through with the reciprocity stuff still in it and unchanged.  If they really meant it, they would pass reciprocity or hearing protection by itself instead of adding them to a rider on a compromise bill.
Dems think it is good because they will just try and strip out the reciprocity parts out and pass the NICS part like they wanted in the first place. They couldn't get universal checks or outright bans, so they want everyone and their uncle dumping data into the system then they can work later on turning that data into disqualifiers for purchase.
It sounds like its just business/politics as usual. I don't see anything bad in it, but if Schumer and Fineswine support it they must be up to some kind of trick.

Offline GunLink

  • GLHMFIC
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Karma: 16
    • GunLink
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 06:49:41 PM »


NRA now has a "Fact Check" up about Massie's video:

In a recent Facebook Post, Congressman Thomas Massie (KY-4) included several inaccurate statements about H.R. 4477, the Fix-NICS bill. Below are some facts to set the record straight:

CLAIM: “The bill will also advance former President Obama’s agenda of pressuring every branch of the administration (such as the Veteran’s Administration) to submit thousands of more names to the NICS background check database to deny gun purchases.”

FACT: The bill requires that federal agencies submit the names of anyone who is already prohibited by law from possessing a firearm to the NICS background check database. This differs from former President Obama’s efforts, in which he attempted to administratively create new categories of individuals who were prohibited from possessing a firearm. H.R. 4477, by contrast, is aimed squarely at individuals like the perpetrator of the recent murders in Texas, who should have been reported to NICS because of his disqualifying criminal history.

CLAIM: “The bill is being rammed through, without a hearing, in a very nontransparent process, and it will be passed by attaching it to the popular concealed carry reciprocity bill which already has enough votes to pass on its own.”

FACT: The bill went through a very thorough and public markup session of its own. And like the concealed carry reciprocity bill, the Fix NICS bill would also have enough votes to pass on its own.

CLAIM: “It spends over half a billion dollars to collect more names to include in a list of people who will never be allowed to own a firearm.”

FACT: The bill incentivizes states to transmit the records of individuals who, under current law, are already prohibited from possessing a firearm. It does not create new categories of restriction.

CLAIM: “It compels administrative agencies, not just courts, to adjudicate your second amendment rights.”

FACT: Since 1994, administrative agencies have been required to report individuals who are prohibited under current law from possessing a firearm to NICS. Fix-NICS merely adds additional layers of transparency and accountability to the process, as a well as a new 60-day deadline for the government to resolve claims of records that have been erroneously included in NICS.

Offline LivingDeadGirl

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
  • Karma: 0
  • GunLink Member
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 02:25:59 PM »
So I finally got through the entire revised bill as the House passed it.  I do not think that the bump stock part should be added to the bill, as I think it's a waste of money and the Attorney Generals time.  If they really want to know, let local law enforcement report.

The fix nics. I have heard a lot of bad things this week about it, like if the VA decides you aren't "mentally fit" you could be banned even though you never had a court decide you were incompetent. I also don't necessarily agree that federal agencies should be submitting names of people who meet the criteria to ban ownership/possession. And the penalty for not submitting records: no bonus pay. So for breaking a law, uh oh, no bonus pay for you this year. Can I get that penalty for speeding?

I do like that they now add 60 day time frame for incorrect NICS data to be fixed.  So, if you're wrongly denied, they now have 60 days to fix it.

I really do not like that they are providing money to states to improve their reporting. And the states punishment for not complying....their name goes into a list the AG publishes. And if they comply, they get a preferential consideration for certain types of grants.

If they're going to "fix" nics, why aren't there punishments for not following the law?

 Especially since the new bill includes a section on what happens In the event a delay gets transferred after 3 days then comes back denied.  I couldn't tell if it was different from current practice, so maybe they just officially added it?

Offline masfonos

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Karma: 8
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 03:18:03 PM »
So I finally got through the entire revised bill as the House passed it.  I do not think that the bump stock part should be added to the bill, as I think it's a waste of money and the Attorney Generals time.  If they really want to know, let local law enforcement report.
They are going to study this either way and I suspect that they will find out what they already know: that they aren't used in crimes in any significant numbers and that, even if they wanted to, they don't have any way of regulating them under NFA or as firearms.




The fix nics. I have heard a lot of bad things this week about it, like if the VA decides you aren't "mentally fit" you could be banned even though you never had a court decide you were incompetent. I also don't necessarily agree that federal agencies should be submitting names of people who meet the criteria to ban ownership/possession.

There is no such thing as "mentally fit."  A person is prohibited from owning a firearm if they have "been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution" and "adjudicated as a mental defective" has a very specific legal definition:


27 CFR § 478.11 Meaning of terms reads:
Act. 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.
Adjudicated as a mental defective.

(a) A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:
(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or
(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.

(b) The term shall include -
(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and
(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b.


(a)(1) and (2) are what has people worried, but I don't think that the FIX NICS bill lowers that bar any or change who a "lawful authority" is. People are worried that some other rule might lower the bar to include social security recipients who have to have someone else help manage their finances ( per a.2.) or VA patients who might have PTSD (per a.1.).

As best as I can tell, this bill does nothing to change any of that. There are already definitions of people who are "supposed to be" (depending on whether you agree with the Brady Bill's NICS stuff - I do not necessarily) prohibited and I believe that there is already a requirement to feed those prohibiting factors into the system.






I do like that they now add 60 day time frame for incorrect NICS data to be fixed.  So, if you're wrongly denied, they now have 60 days to fix it.
Wouldn't that be great? The FBI website currently, as of 9 December 2017, reads:  The NICS Section’s Appeal Services Team is currently processing appeal cases and Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) cases received in August 2015.




I really do not like that they are providing money to states to improve their reporting. And the states punishment for not complying....their name goes into a list the AG publishes. And if they comply, they get a preferential consideration for certain types of grants.
I personally think that the whole thing should be defunded at state and local levels and left to wither and die. That won't happen. I don't like NICS. If someone is not responsible enough to be a free man out on the streets with society then they should be locked up away from society. If they are responsible enough to be among society, then they should have the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment. That is a fundamental problem with our justice system beyond what a "FIX NICS" bill could ever address.

As it is, we are stuck with NICS and, short of a "NIX NICS" bill, this bill does less fixing and more bringing NICS in line with its intended purpose.





Especially since the new bill includes a section on what happens In the event a delay gets transferred after 3 days then comes back denied.  I couldn't tell if it was different from current practice, so maybe they just officially added it?
I don't know what the remedy is specifically under current law. The ATF has a FAQ about denied NICS responses, but it just says that the licensee "should notify the NICS section."  It's my understanding that if the FFL has already transfered after 3 business days and then they get a DENY, a sheriff or marshall goes to the transferee to collect the firearm.

Offline LivingDeadGirl

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
  • Karma: 0
  • GunLink Member
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 08:56:07 AM »
I tried finding current law and it doesn’t appear on the BATFE or FBI websites about NICS. I brought us the current NICS revision and it doesn’t include anything that I could readily find.  So I think maybe they added it so it’s actually outlined who is responsible for getting the firearm.

Offline 1slickAR15

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
  • Karma: 6
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2017, 02:16:12 PM »
I looked at bill text and still don't see what is so bad about it that has everyone so scared. Reciprocity is a good thing and I don't see how this bill makes NICS any worse than it already is.

Offline GunLink

  • GLHMFIC
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Karma: 16
    • GunLink
Re: HB38 National Reciprocity / Fix NICS Twitter Poll
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 05:11:09 PM »
If you're on Twitter, hit our poll on what you think about the combined National Reciprocity and Fix NICS bill.

Don't forget to share WHY you have that opinion.




« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 05:14:27 PM by GunLink »

Offline Gunz

  • Industry Member
  • marketplace
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: 0
  • Louisville-based FFL dealer
    • Gunz Inc.
Re: HB38 Vote Tomorrow
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 05:49:29 PM »
National reciprocity is a good thing, but it only helps a little for KY.  Most places already recognize our CCDW permit and we recognize pretty much anywhere else that issues a CCDW.



(502) 935-GUNZ
10970 Dixie Hwy
Louisville, KY
www.GunzInc.com
Facebook
Twitter

 

Chief Supply Tactical Apparel and Gear for Law, Fire, EMS, Military and Outdoors @chief TekMat